2010.019

Staff / Produced by

Produced by Staff

Museum Collections.

2009 - 2009

Date(s) Created: 2009 Date(s): 2009-2009

Notes: Oral history questions Centro Puerto Rican archives Socorro Rivera and Tom Olivieri, November 23, 2009: Interviewer: Christina Ziegler-McPherson Interviewees: Socorro Rivera, 209 7th St., Hoboken, N.J. Teofilo 'Tom' Olivieri, 1126 Willow Ave., Hoboken, N.J. Place: 209 Seventh St., Hoboken, N.J. Transcription made by Christina Ziegler-McPherson, 2009. Consent: do you give your consent to record this conversation for the purpose of preserving the history of the Puerto Rican community in Hoboken? Rivera: Yes. Olivieri: Yes. Where were you born? When? Rivera: I was born in Mayagüez, Puerto Rico, I was born April 12, 1942. Olivieri: And I was also born in Mayagüez, Puerto Rico, I was born on April 29, 1939. How old were you when you came to Hoboken? Rivera: I was nine years old when I came into Hoboken. Olivieri: And I had just turned twelve. When you first came to Hoboken, where in town did your family live? What street? Rivera: We lived on 12th and Willow and we lived there for, I would say, a good 16 years or so. How would you describe that street, in terms of the ethnic heritage of the people who lived there, was it Irish, was it Italian, German? Olivieri: Back then they were mostly German, and Irish. There were very few Italian families but there were Italian families on the block also. Were you in an apartment building or a brownstone? Olivieri: An apartment building. And your neighbors were mixed (of different ethnic backgrounds)? Olivieri: Mixed, yes. Actually we were the second Puerto Rican family on, in that area, in that block, the first being my cousin Eddie Torres, who passed away a couple of years ago out in California. But he's the one who helped our father find housing and ultimately a job and everything. So you were neighbors. Olivieri: Well, it was, the block consisted of nine buildings of 15 families in each building, so it was 135 families total, there were three apartments per floor. What schools did you go to here in town? Rivera: I went to Wallace School and then, from there to Demarest. Olivieri: The same for me too. When you were in school in Puerto Rico, did you go to a public school or parochial school? Olivieri: Parochial school. Do you remember which order ran the parochial school? Olivieri: I don't remember the order of the nuns, all I know is that they were very, very strict. The school was called St. Vincent of Ferrer, San Vincente Ferrer School, in a small town called Catano, Puerto Rico. Up to what grade did you go? Rivera: I went up to the 4th grade, I was just starting the fourth grade when we left Puerto Rico. Olivieri: And I began the 7th grade here. When you think of the Puerto Rican community in Hoboken in the 1950s and 1960s, when you were growing up here, what do you think of, what off the top of your head comes to mind? Olivieri: Repeat the question. When you think of the Puerto Rican community in Hoboken in the 1950s and 1960s, when you were growing up here, what comes to your mind, just off the top of your head? Olivieri: What comes to my mind is a group of people that came from, from the Caribbean to settle here, working class people, like my mother, and like, I say my parents, actually, my mother never worked, you know, she was a stay-at-home mom, you know, there were four of us, but my father, I think, exemplified the typical Puerto Rican here back then. He came here to work and to, and to make a better life for the family. Things were tough back then in Puerto Rico back then, after the Second World War. Rivera: I think about when, when the Puerto Rican people started settling in on that block, because there were a lot of Puerto Ricans in that block back then, I remember feeling comforted, I remember, you know, very loving people, where we were always shunned by the other people, we were taken in by our own, of course, so it made me feel, it made me good too. Olivieri: What, what happened back then, you know, maybe I can give you some, eventually by the mid-Fifties, early Sixties, the block was entirely Puerto Rican, everybody had moved out. I've always said that's how you create ghettos, you know, where a certain ethnic community lives in a place and is gradually replaced, and a lot of times that's done out of prejudice, as one non-Hispanic family moved out, moved in, moved out, a Hispanic family, a Puerto Rican family would move in, the landlord would then, back then, sort of like get away from taking care of the building, and there was also no tenant selection, so with the good come the bad, you know, and eventually that's what creates a neighborhood where people say, 'oh, that's a Puerto Rican ghetto there,' you know. I wanted to ask you some questions about church, because that's the focus of the project. I'm curious about what church did your family attend? Rivera: We attended St. Joseph's. That was, I believe, the only, the only parish that had a Spanish Mass. So this is where we would go. How often did you attend church? Rivera: At least once a week, and then we became Hijas de Maria, the Daughters of Mary, and we had little groups. Also there was Father Eugene Zwahl and he had, that, what was the center? Olivieri: Centro de Catholico. Rivera: The Catholic Center, that was on Washington Street, although that was apart from the church, and he would form little parties and things to keep us together and all in our Spanish community, you know, in Spanish, dances and everything. Did he speak Spanish? Rivera: Father? Yes, he spoke Spanish. Did he speak it well? Rivera: Yes, he spoke it well enough. Olivieri: He was of German descent, his last name was Zwahl, Z-W-A-H-L, and Father Eugene, or Padre Eugenio, you know, people would call him, was the person who was really instrumental in initially bringing the community to the Church and the Church into the community, through that center and through church activities themselves. This was on First and Washington, it was called the, it was called the Spanish Catholic Center, we called it El Centro, the Center, and it was a place where they held a lot of social activities for the, for youth especially. A lot of couples that we have seen throughout the years, a lot of the marriages, have lasted all that, originated then and there, the relationships began there. At what age were you when you joined the Daughters of Mary? Rivera: I must have been maybe 12, 13, around that age. A group of us from the block would, would go together and participate. Was the whole group all Puerto Rican? Rivera: All Puerto Rican, all Puerto Rican. No other Spanish-speaking or other ethnic groups? Rivera: No. Olivieri: There were none around back then, there were no Cubans, Dominicans, people from Central or South America, or Mexicans here at all. And it was just for Spanish-speaking girls? Rivera: Yes. When you think of that organization, that group how similar or how different do you think was it from your church-going experience in Puerto Rico? Did they have similar kinds of social organizations for girls in Puerto Rico? Rivera: I think I was too young, and we lived too far away from the church anyway to do too much participation. We would go on Sundays always, and- Olivieri: that was mandatory. When we were in, when you went to a parochial school there, you know. Rivera: Also on Fridays they would take us from the school, they would take us every Friday. Olivieri: Every Friday for confession. Rivera: Also, yes. Olivieri: For confession. Rivera: But I think I was too young to participate in anything that we had going on there. Did you (Olivieri) participate in any particular youth organization for boys? Olivieri: No, not here, or in Puerto Rico either. So I am not the person that is really knowledgeable in the men's organizations or the boys' organizations, which was called the Cabrillos de Sante Nombre, the Holy Names Society, you know. But other people I can mention, like Angel Padilla, George Guzman, other people, can elaborate, can really elaborate on that. When you think about your family growing up, would you call your family religious? Rivera: Yes, yes. In what ways? Rivera: My mother especially, my mother was very religious. Olivieri: She was a devout Catholic. Rivera: She would make sure we had all our- Olivieri: well, like made sure we were baptized- Rivera: right. Olivieri: That we had made our confirmation, that we did our communication, you know, that we knew the prayers, you know. Rivera: Yes. Olivieri: And my mother, and Socorro can, can elaborate on this but my mother made a pledge to the Virgin of Perpetual Health; Socorro means "health," you know, and it comes from the word "socorrer," you know, succor, and my mother made a pledge to the Virgin that when she became, when she was going to have the baby, if it was a girl, she would name her after her. And she fooled around with, what did she do, with her dress, the way she dressed? Rivera: She would, she used to, she would dress in a- Olivieri: she dressed that way for years. Rivera: How you say? Olivieri: Habitan, a habit. Rivera: A habit, she would wear a habit. It was a- Olivieri: it was a color like this (indicating a tan color), light, lighter. Rivera: With a red- Olivieri: and with a, with a wine red, wine red, like a crimson sash, you know. And she wore that, and that's all she wore for years after my sister (was born). Whatever the pledge was for, because she made a pledge for X amount of years she would wear this, if she was a girl. And she called her Socorro. So did your family also say rosaries or prayers at home as well? Rivera: Yes, my mother, my mother always said the rosary, my mother, even to her last days, she always kept a little Bible and she would read from it all the time, even though she had very bad eye sight, but somehow she managed to get one with pretty good lettering and she would use her little glass- Olivieri: magnifying glass- Rivera: magnifying glass to read. Olivieri: Back, back then, things like, you know what a scapular is, scapulario? Those things were common in our house. A scapular is, I don't, I really don't know exactly- Rivera: She knows what they are. Olivieri: No, what the meaning is, a scapular is, it's like a, it's got two little images of the- Rivera: of what? Of the saints. There are several… Oliveri: of the saints on a cord, yeah, and that is something that used in, oh, there's one up there (indicating). Rivera (showing her mother's scapular): This one used to be hers, this St. Jude and also the scapulari and the- Olivieri: and the rosary- Rivera: and the rosary, this was hers. This was the scapulari. She loved St. Jude, she prayed to St. Jude. And this is her, come se, her name saint? Name saint, yeah. Olivieri: Yeah. Rivera: Of St. Mounts Carmel [Mount St. Carmel]. Was your father religious as well? Olivieri: My father was religious but I don't think as much as my mother, you know. Rivera: He would always remind us, he would always remind me, he said, 'it's not just Sunday, it's not just Sunday that you visit the church,' he said, anytime I go by the church, I always drop in. Olivieri: He would drop in. He wasn't a devout Catholic in the sense that he was there on Sundays but I think that we do that too, you know, whenever it comes upon you, you go into the church, if you're walking by, at least, you know, to pay respect. Rivera: But he wasn't one to go to Sundays, on Sundays with us, although in Puerto Rico, did he? I can't remember. Olivieri: In Puerto Rico, he went once in a while. After 1965 at St. Joseph's, were there Masses said in Spanish? Olivieri: Oh yes, it was the first church in Hoboken to initiate Spanish Masses, along with the catechism and all those, and the institution of those organizations, like the Hijas de Maria,- Rivera: De Madre Christiana. Oliveri: The Christian Mothers, that was for elder women. Rivera: Lot of movements, Cursillistas, what's another one? If you can remember, in what ways was attending church in Hoboken different from attending church in Puerto Rico? Rivera: Well, I guess, maybe being older, there was more participation in, and more understanding of the Mass, it was explained to us differently, right? In Puerto Rico, I don't think we had much communication with the, with the priests themselves, right? I guess because we were younger, so what we had was from the teachers in the school but here I guess we could understand a little bit better, we had to take classes sometimes and we would talk directly with the priests, one to one or as a group. Olivieri: If I remember right, though, I think the Masses were all said in Latin anyway, except the sermon was in Spanish and the communication with the priest was, like she said, was more open because it would be spoken in a language that people basically understood. For us as children, we picked English, and in my case I think I knew English all along, I don't remember not knowing English ever. But for all the people, it really facilitated talking, you know, to the priest and being able to communicate. And traditionally people in Latin America in general were really brought up in the Christian tradition, especially Catholicism, so everybody looks to the priest as a direct representative of, a direct representative of God. So you felt that the way you experienced church here was not particularly different from church in Puerto Rico except that you understood more? Olivieri: Yeah, and I think that will be echoed by anybody else that you interview that is young, maybe someone who came here who was older may have had a different experience than we had. Do you recall any kinds tensions between Puerto Ricans and other ethnic groups at church, in terms of the way the church was run, in forming different social organizations, about issues of whether Mass would be said in Spanish or English or another language, do you remember anything like that? Rivera: I've always felt that we are not given the same leeway that the other Masses are given, we're more restricted, we're, I don't know, the fear that we may do something wrong, or there is always that, you can always notice the difference. Could you elaborate a little bit more about this? Like it [Mass] has to be at certain times and not at other times, or in some part of the church? Rivera: I don't know how to elaborate on that, I've just always felt that we've never been treated the same way. Olivieri: I, what you're trying to say, I don't understand the question too well. In some other areas, historically, there have been anecdotes of tensions between, say Irish Catholics and Italian Catholics, over whether there should be an Italian parish or whether the parish should continue to give the Mass in English, that kind of thing. Olivieri: Yeah, I'm sure that created certain resentment from other communities, since there was really, I didn't hear of a specific Mass in Italian here. Do you? Rivera: Oh, well, yeah, St. Ann's. Olivieri: St. Ann's just in Italian? Rivera: St. Ann's has an Italian Mass. Olivieri: OK, so, I wasn't aware of that, but I would say probably yes. There was one point when we first came here to Hoboken, I say Hoboken because Hoboken is really the, I'm going to say, the crib of the Hispanic in New Jersey. I think more Hispanics migrated here than any other place in New Jersey in, I'm not talking about New York, just New Jersey, in the early Fifties, you know, and I think at first we were seen as sort of a curiosity, sort of cute. We weren't black, you know, we weren't totally black, we spoke a different language, and I think that at the time we were not a threat as far as taking up housing or jobs, you know, and again, that goes back to the creation of neighborhoods and ghettos, you know, when then people start, start to, in my opinion, to resent people, because they see them taking over, that's the word they use, 'oh, there goes the neighborhood, they're taking over,' and all that. And I think that at first probably there was resentment and I know that people still resent the fact that Hispanics tend to keep their culture, especially people from the Caribbean, Puerto Ricans. We're not coming from Europe, from 10 hours away, we're three and a half hours away, we tend to keep our culture much more than Europeans, and I think that the other factor that is resented is the fact that we are here without passports, we're here because we're American citizens by birth, you know. I think that resentment, but ultimately, I think, I don't know if it was a huge resentment but I imagine that there were some people that did resent that, from comments that we hear from people. I'm curious if you ever attended the Fiesta of St. John the Baptist in New York in the 1950s and 1960s? Olivieri: No. Rivera: Never. I'm not much a traveler outside of Hoboken. I sort of came here, I've been here for what, 50 some years, I don't like traveling to New York that much. Olivieri: I do, but no. Rivera: But no, I've never been to the feast, no. As you know, we have three Italian Catholic festivals here in town, and I'm curious as to why you think there is not a Puerto Rican festival, why is there not a Feast of St. John? Olivieri: But there was, well, not a, not a- Rivera: not a- Olivieri: not a Christian festival. I'm not talking about the Puerto Rican Day parade but a religious festival. Olivieri: No, we did have a Puerto Rican cultural festival that began here in 1983, 1993, out of my office and this year would have been the 16th year except that has been stopped. The group that was organizing it, I think, has sort of fragmented. But it was held for about 15 years, you know, but it was really not a religious feast like St. Ann's or Madonna de Martiri or one of those. So why do you think Puerto Rican Catholics did not develop or did not approach the Church or why the Church did not provide a similar kind of festival? Olivieri: I don't know, I don't think, I think, for example, I don't think that really came from the church itself, some of the, the Madonna di Martiri, they had, that was a social club and that was their patron saint, and they called it Madonna di Martiri, probably as a disguise to play cards and stuff (laughs). I mean, knowing, you know, knowing a lot of the players in that group, you know, so from there it evolved into a festival. I don't know about St. Ann's, you know. But I don't think the Church really come over, you know, was the one that fostered that, is what I'm saying, you know, I don't think, you know with the (unintelligible) de Fiesta, you know, maybe people acted from within the Church but I don't think it came from the, from the archdiocese or. Rivera: Well, it usually it comes from the people, the people are the ones who want that kind of festival. Olivieri: St. Joseph's has always, always had flea markets, right? And dances, I mean, there were a lot of dances going back to Centro, a lot of dances, and a lot of the dances were initially held at Catholic Centro at First and Washington but after that, at the church hall itself, right? Rivera: We've never, never celebrated St. John's, no. Olivieri: La Fiesta San Juan, that's celebrated big in Puerto Rico. Rivera: But she wants to know why it hasn't caught on here. Olivieri: In Puerto Rico, in New York this is celebrated? The Church organized a feast of San John's in the 1950s through the 1960s where they ended up having them at mass stadium events to accommodate several thousand people but eventually it was discontinued. Olivieri: And it was dissolved, is that was happened? Eventually they started focusing on the Puerto Rican Day parade. Olivieri: It's celebrated big in Puerto Rico. It's a night when traditionally people go to the water, to the beach, and they walk in three times backward, and that's supposed to wash away the spirits, the evil things, or bad things, right? And that's it. Rivera: We don't know too much about that. Olivieri (to Rivera): Well, you haven't been to the Fiesta of San Juan in Puerto Rico, I have, I have been to a couple of them. Do you remember any other religious festivals as a child in Puerto Rico? Rivera: The one from the town used to always, right? Each town's patronale. Olivieri: Fiesta patronale, right. In Puerto Rico each town has a patron saint, and at any given time, any given time, any given year, any given day, there will be a patron saint feast somewhere in Puerto Rico. There are 78 municipalities, you have 52 weeks in the year, so there's always one going on and then, of course, you have Holy Week, which is the biggest Christian celebration, you know, you know the death and rising of Christ, so Holy Week is really, that's, that's big time. Here it's not observed that much, in Puerto Rico, remember, people would not work. Throughout our lives we never worked on Good Friday, and it was just out of tradition, you know. While other people may have worked, when we worked, we would either take the day off, or you know, if it was a day off, I know the City gives Good Friday off, right. Rivera: I'm just thinking of Our Lady of Grace. When my son was around eight years old - there was a gap between the time I got married and when I had my children where I wouldn't go to church as often, I don't know, you get lost somewhere along the line. But when my son became of age when I thought he should be making his communion, he must have been around seven, I started going to Our Lady of Grace because that church was much closer to me and since I have two children, it was so much easier. So at that church we had different celebrations. And we would have, w would have on Good Friday the, como se jama(?), the parade, como se dice- Olivieri: procession- Rivera: procession. Olivieri: We would have a procession. Rivera: Procession, every Friday we would have the procession throughout the streets, this was done through Father, Father Frederick Eid. Father Eid is, as a matter of fact, very sick at this moment, he is in the hospital. But for over 30 years he was with the Spanish community in Hoboken and he did a lot of beautiful things for the people and- Olivieri: through Our Lady of Grace- Rivera: Our Lady of Grace, and he brought a lot of people together, of course now there's not just Puerto Ricans, but now we have all different, from all different countries and islands and, but he did bring the community together, he had everybody participating in different things, we had the Christian Mothers, we had the Cabrilleros, we had Hijas de Maria, we had the young, a group of young people, ages, I'll say 13-20 or 21, something like that, and he did hold those people together and everything was going very, very well. Did many people who had attended St. Joseph's switch to Our Lady of Grace? Rivera: A lot of people that used to go to St. Joseph's, yes. Olivieri: What happened also was over the years, the Catholic Church - I don't know how you'd called it - downsized and they closed certain parishes and for example. By the way, between Father, Father Eugene and through recent years, we had through the years a succession of Franciscan priests and brothers at St. Joseph's and they were the greatest people, you know, like Father Juniper, (to Rivera), Father Marcos. Who was the father who was albino? Remember? Rivera: I don't know. Olivieri: Father Connell, Father Terrence, Father Justin, Father Peter, I mean, there were so many beautiful people, I mean, people that would literally take the shirt of their back and give it to someone, and I've seen that, saw that, I saw that on at least one occasion with the fires, I saw Brother Christopher, you know, take off his shirt and give it somebody. So what kinds of social or religious, spiritual things did the fathers organize for Puerto Ricans at Our Lady of Grace? Rivera: We, we used to have, we used to have a lot of social affairs, he would take us to different churches, he took us, he would take us to the cathedral, he took us to different churches and to different, no se, (unintelligible, speaking in Spanish) Olivieri: To Mother Cabrini procession. Rivera: Right. Olivieri: To certain places where there were icons or places of reverence like Mother Cabrini. I know, you know, there are probably several, where, these would be places that have some sort of significance in the Catholic religion and young people were brought there just to bear witness, to see. Rivera: We had the group called the Cursillistas and there were a few people selected like every two or three months whenever they had a new Cursillo, and we would go, it was a retreat, and I went, it was a retreat for a weekend where all the people from the different parishes from all over would come and we would meet in that house, you know, we would pray, we had holy hour, we would sing, we would have dinners together, we would discuss in groups of maybe five or six, we would discuss problems that we were having, and, it was really beautiful, it was a really beautiful thing, that was a very beautiful experience for me. How old were you when you did this? Rivera: I had already had my children, so I must have been in my late 20s or early 30s, but I really enjoyed that. And then after that, we would come and we would meet, we would meet every Sunday after Mass, the group of Cursillistas, we, well, before that, I'm sorry, before that, we would meet during the week, once a week we would meet in someone's home, the little group made of five, always the same people, five or six, and we would meet and we would discuss certain topics, Catholic topics, also we would go over any problems that somebody may be having that they just wanted to talk about, to have someone listen to what was going on in their lives, and then on Sunday we would prepare a report that we had to stand in front of the group, a group of maybe 30 or more and discuss that with them, what we had found, you know, we would look into the Bible, and take verses from the Bible, and things like that, and it was very nice. It was a beautiful experience, I don't know why that just came to an end suddenly. Did you stay close to those women over the years? Rivera: One of them was like my best friend and she passed away, that was Esperanza. Olivieri: Esperanza. Rivera: And another one of our group also passed away. And- Olivieri: Maria Theresa? Rivera: Maria Theresa, Esperanza, Bonita's brother? Olivieri: Oh yeah. Rivera: And his wife. Olivieri: (unintelligible) Rivera: Right. Olivieri: (unintelligible) Rivera: Right, and they also passed away. There is only one, one, two of us from my group left. Olivieri: Do you know who? Rivera; Bonita, she's back and forth to Puerto Rico, she's a little bit older than me. Olivieri: By the way, this was a group of people that would offer support to the community whenever there was a loss of a family member, you know, and they would go, go to the house and, first, go to the funeral parlor and say prayers, you know, and following that they would have what they call a novena for nine days where they would pray the rosary at the house. That's a tradition, and it's something that's traditionally done on the anniversary, more or less, of the person's death, it's not only those nine days but maybe a year later remembering that person, the group would gather, you know, and give support to the family, you know. Is that a Catholic tradition or a Puerto Rican tradition? Olivieri: No, it's a Catholic, well, I don't know, we really- Rivera: we took for granted that it was something that everybody did. Olivieri: I don't know if, I don't know, that's a good question. I know the rosary is prayed throughout the world, in English and Spanish and all that, but as far as doing that, the novena… Rivera: The novena is done in Puerto Rico after, after the death of any, any Catholic person, they always do a novena. I'm curious if you knew any non-Catholic Puerto Ricans growing up? Olivieri: Oh yeah, sure. Rivera: What? Olivieri: Non-Catholic Puerto Ricans Rivera: Oh sure. Olivieri: Sure, I think, nowadays, I think that's more prevalent, there's more, there are more. When we grew up, mostly everybody from Puerto Rico- Rivera: Catolico- Olivieri: was Catholic, you know. And, I don't know, I know the Adventists were around, you know, but that was very small, the Methodists, the- Rivera: the Jehovah's Witnesses- Olivieri: the Baptists. The Jehovah's Witnesses I don't remember at all as a kid. (unintelligible) in Puerto Rico when we grew up either. I mean, I don't know, you know, I don't know when the Jehovah's Witnesses came about, you know, what year, the more radical hallelujahs, Protestant religions. So it sounds like that when you were a child everybody on your street was Puerto Rican, they were Catholic and everybody went to church. Olivieri: Yes, that's the way I remember. Rivera: That's the way I remember it living on Twelfth Street. Everybody went to Mass. I'm curious also about other, non-Church things, other social or cultural organizations that were developed in the 1950s and 1960s that perhaps your parents participated in that were separate from the Church? Olivieri: No, well, as Puerto Ricans started to get involved with politics here, there were a couple of groups here and there. Like the social clubs here? Olivieri: Yes, the social clubs. So there were Puerto Rican social clubs here? Olivieri: Oh there were a couple of them throughout town, yeah, yeah. Where were they located? Olivieri: There was one on 2nd Street, the Jimon Muñoz… what was it called? It will come to me. There was one on 2nd Street, and these had the name of one person, he was like the standard bearer, you know (unintelligible) had one eventually. Jimon M... [truncated due to length]