2010.019

Staff / Produced by

Produced by Staff

Museum Collections.

2009 - 2009

Date(s) Created: 2009 Date(s): 2009-2009

Notes: archives catalog 2010.019.0001.04 Centro oral history interview protocol Elizabeth and Jerry Forman, December 14, 2009: Interviewer: Christina Ziegler-McPherson Interviewees: Jerry Forman, 116 Bloomfield St, Hoboken, N.J. Elizabeth Forman Place: 116 Bloomfield St, Hoboken, N.J. Transcription made by Christina Ziegler-McPherson, 2009. Consent: do you give your consent to - Jerry Forman: to get remarried again? No, to record this conversation for the purpose of preserving the history of the Puerto Rican community in Hoboken? Jerry Forman: Yes. You know where we were married? Where? Jerry Forman: In the synagogue. Which one? Jerry Forman: The one right on Park Avenue, Orthodox Jewish synagogue. Where were you born? Jerry Forman: Her or me? Both of you. Jerry Forman: I was born in Brooklyn, New York, I was born in the Jewish hospital. She was born in Corozal, Corozal, Puerto Rico. Did you ever hear of Corozal? No, sorry. Jerry Forman: 2,500 feet above sea level. Cold at night, yes it is, that's the way it is in Puerto Rico. Do you mind me asking when you were born? Jerry Forman: I was born 1928, she was born 1930. Mrs. Forman, when did you first come from Puerto Rico? Jerry Forman: How old is Vicky? Elizabeth Forman: 51. Jerry Forman: When was Vicky born? Elizabeth Forman: January 7. Jerry Forman: When? Elizabeth Forman: January 7, and Vicky was born in Brooklyn, right? Elizabeth Forman: Brooklyn. Jerry Forman: Brooklyn. So you first came to New York? Elizabeth Forman: 51. Jerry Forman: Yes, to have the baby. And when did you move to Hoboken? Jerry Forman: About a year later. When you moved to Hoboken, where in town did you live? Elizabeth Forman: Bloomfield Street by Olga, Mrs. Borsin? Jerry Forman: Borsini, they owned the building and I was talking to her [Mrs. Forman] in Spanish, and Olga, her name was. Do you remember the address? Jerry Forman: yeah, 210, no, no 1002 [Bloomfield Street]. Elizabeth Forman: 1002, right. Jerry Forman: 1002. And she said to me 'how come you're speaking to your wife in Italian?' And I said, 'no, I'm speaking to her in Spanish.' 'where's your wife from, Spain?' and I said, 'no, my wife's from Puerto Rico.' 'Oh, I didn't know that, if I knew that I never would have rented you the apartment!' In front of her. Elizabeth Forman: I laughed. And then a week later, she was my best friend. Now, with the street, when you moved there- Jerry Forman: it was Bloomfield, 10th and Bloomfield. Right, but the ethnicity of the people there, was it mostly Italian, Irish… Jerry Forman: All mixed. Elizabeth Forman: There were no Puerto Ricans, we were the first ones, I think. Jerry Forman: No, we were the first on the block. It was all Italians. Elizabeth Forman: (unintelligible), that was all. Jerry Forman: It was Italian. Elizabeth Forman: All Italian. Jerry Forman: All Italian up there. Two blocks up, it was all Jewish, they had the synagogue up on Hudson Street. It's not there anymore, and then they had another synagogue on, on Garden Street, the oldest synagogue in the state of New Jersey and they made condos out of it. Elizabeth Forman: And my husband be helping the Spanish-speaking people. Jerry Forman: I worked for the El Diario. I was a newspaper reporter in the El Diario, in Nuevo York when it was located in Brooklyn. I covered the farms, I covered the farm labor, where they were, you know, enslaving Puerto Rican help, so I worked- Elizabeth Forman: (unintelligible) for the Puerto Rican people. How did you guys meet? Elizabeth Forman: He was in the Army and I working in the restaurant, the Air Force. Jerry Forman: She was working on the base and we bumped into each other. When was this? Jerry Forman: And then she offered me $10,000- Elizabeth Forman: Oh, that's a lie. Jerry Forman: if I would marry her. Elizabeth Forman (laughs). Jerry Forman: I says, 'I'll take 5 in quarters.' When was this, when did you get married? Jerry Forman: We got married twice, we got married in Puerto Rico and then we got married in Brooklyn and then we got married in Hoboken. So, that's three times. Jerry Forman: Right. And what year did you get married? Elizabeth Forman: Oh God, I'm telling you. Jerry Forman: In Brooklyn, we got married in the City Hall, that was the second time. Elizabeth Forman: It was 8-4 something. We have so many children we don't know what we were even thinking about in those days (laughs). Jerry Forman: I have it in the book, somebody took it. It's OK. You said 57 years. Jerry Forman: Vicky was born in January? Elizabeth Forman: Seventh. Jerry Forman: January. Elizabeth Forman: I forgot even the year. You said you've been married 57 years. Jerry Forman: 57 years. OK, I'll figure that out. Jerry Forman: 57 years. Elizabeth Forman: From there you can figure it out. Believe me, because I can't. Jerry Forman: We got married in Brooklyn at City Hall on Court Street, on Court Street. Mrs. Forman, was there any objection from your family to you marrying Mr. Forman because he was Jewish? Elizabeth Forman: No. Jerry Forman: (unintelligible) Elizabeth Forman: No, because my mother passed away when I was young. [3rd party enters the room, asks: "you guys are busy, right?"] Jerry Forman: Yeah, yeah, we're being interviewed by the Chase National Bank for a small loan. Elizabeth Forman: (laughs). Jerry Forman: I'm going to put your name down (speaking to the third party) Elizabeth Forman: My mother passed away when I was young and then I raised myself. What about your father, other family? Elizabeth Forman: My father, he went with his girlfriend, this way (gesturing). Jerry Forman: She had an aunt that raised her, Paula. Elizabeth Forman: My aunt, but she passed away too. Jerry Forman: She passed away too, Paula. Elizabeth Forman: And so I have nobody when I met him. I know he was a Jew (unintelligible) but I not know what it was. Jerry Forman: And I thought she was a Jewish girl. Elizabeth Forman: And I never met any Pole and (unintelligible) or anything. Because, like I told you, I have a big family but- Jerry Forman: and then we brought that big family to Hoboken. We brought all, that building across the street, first floor apartment right and left, second floor apartment right and left, third floor, and then the building over there, what did we have, 130. Elizabeth Forman; 210 and 208 [Bloomfield] was ours. Jerry Forman: Was our building, and what about the one across the street? Elizabeth Forman: That's 604. Jerry Forman: The one with the G.I. Bill? Elizabeth Forman: 127. Jerry Forman: 127? Elizabeth Forman: Yes. Jerry Forman: You see those big bay windows? And I sold that … Elizabeth Forman: (unintelligible), she don't care about that. Mr. Forman, how did you learn Spanish? Did you learn it at school or at home? Jerry Forman: From back and forth (gesturing to Mrs. Forman). Elizabeth Forman: And I learned English because he was in the Army, you know, and he bought me, I have a book, he used to help me. Jerry Forman: You know, I still used to have it around here, I gave it…. It's the one they give me in the Army, you know. Elizabeth Forman: They learn us to speak English or Spanish or whatever you want to learn. Jerry Forman: You want to say a word in Spanish, then you say it in English. You know, I seen it this week. Elizabeth Forman: I want to get it back, Jerry. When you think of the Puerto Rican community in Hoboken in the 1950s and 1960s, what kinds of things come to mind? Jerry Forman: Oh, they had a hard time. They had a hard time. I worked at that time with the Birenbaum family, being commander of the Jewish War Veterans, I was able to get employment for them at, at the American Tootsie Roll Company. And they had three shifts down there and anybody who came from Puerto Rico, I would go down there and get them a job. Then there was another company- Elizabeth Forman: the Three Brothers. Jerry Forman: The Three Brother on First Street. Morris… Elizabeth Forman: Morris, what's his last name? Jerry Forman: Oh God, I forgot Morris, then there was another company that made, that made- Elizabeth Forman: and over here where they made watches. You went there too. Jerry Forman: Yeah. Boy, I'm getting bad. There was a company, another company, the Birenbaum Brothers, and they would hire from me. I would bring the Puerto Ricans in to them and they would hire. Tootsie Roll was very good to me. So you were like a labor contractor? Elizabeth Forman: No, he works for nothing. For love of God. Like he's doing now. You see this mess here? (indicating Mr. Forman's Share program donations) That's why. To Jerry Forman: So what kind of work did you do? Jerry Forman: I was director of welfare. For the City [of Hoboken]. Jerry Forman: For the City. Elizabeth Forman: And now what he is doing is over here, you see the way this is, is because he's doing… Jerry Forman: I do two things here. I do the Share program for food and I do the services for those that are on probation. Elizabeth Forman: (unintelligible). Jerry Forman: Community service. Elizabeth Forman: For nothing. Jerry Forman: I don't get paid. How did you get your job with the welfare department? Jerry Forman: I got the job at the welfare department through Johnny Grogan [mayor of Hoboken from 1953-1965]. Through John Grogan, God rest his soul. Grogan, I don't know if you know, was the international president of the CIO in this country [international vice president of the AFL-CIO, also president of the Industrial Union of Marine and Shipbuilding Workers, 1950-1968]. So I got a job as an investigator and I started with him and then I went up to become director. So this was in the Forties, after the war? Jerry Forman: no, it was during the Fifties, the Fifties and Sixties. I put 20 years in there, and I left my field, my field, you can't see, it's over there, my diploma on the wall. Elizabeth Forman: Dental technician. Jerry Forman: I was a prosthetic technician. I made false teeth. And she worked and helped out and we had the, we had the, she was having children plus we were having, we opened, she opened up the first Hispanic restaurant in the state of New Jersey. You know where the Clam Broth House used to be [36 Newark Street, Hoboken]. Yes. Jerry Forman: That's where it used to be, that was her place. It was called Casa Latina. At that time in Hoboken, if you spoke Spanish, they would throw you out of the place. Did you know that? I have heard that there was discrimination. Why do you think there was so much discrimination against Puerto Ricans? Jerry Forman: Jealousy, envy, thinking that they're going to take over, they're going to take over the whole town and chase out, they used to say, 'they're going to chase out all the white people.' Am I right? Elizabeth Forman: Yeah. Jerry Forman: And, what the heck was it? Stanley Ross I worked for, he was the editor of the… Elizabeth Forman: El Diario Jerry Forman: El Diario in Nuevo York. And then we moved to Manhattan, I forgot where in Manhattan, lower Manhattan. When was that? Jerry Forman: In the Fifties and Sixties, Fifties and Sixties. I used to go to all the farms in the state of New Jersey and New York and Pennsylvania to see if the folks, if the men weren't ill-treated. The farm workers. Jerry Forman: Yeah, the farmers would take advantage, and they all lived in chicken coops, run down. Then when the housing came in, I made sure there was no discrimination, I made sure that we, we, that Hispanics, the Puerto Ricans got a fair shake in the housing. For every floor that was there, I made sure that one Puerto Rican family was given an apartment. Mrs. Forman, what caused you to open this restaurant? Elizabeth Forman: Always I love to work, I love to work. Jerry Forman: She was always a hard worker. And having children in between. Elizabeth Forman: I never have children get out my house to go to the hospital. And always I was in the business. I'd say, 'Jerry, I have my labor, take me to the hospital.' Jerry Forman: From the business. Elizabeth Forman: From the business (laughs). Jerry Forman: From the business. What did you do, did you cook, did you run everything? Elizabeth Forman: (unintelligible) Jerry Forman: She cooked in the business, she was a good cook. Elizabeth Forman: And I have a bar too, you know, together, we service everything. What kinds of things, did people have private parties, dances or was it just a restaurant and bar? Jerry Forman: Yes, I have dances too. Elizabeth Forman: When I had Café Elisa we used to have dances, Tito Puente used to come down, Celia Cruz, all of them. Jerry Forman: Celia Cruz used to sing to me, oh, what a beautiful voice. Elizabeth Forman: Daniel Santos, all of them used to come down, you know. (unintelligible) Jerry Forman: Because there was no place her in New Jersey that any of these Spanish- Elizabeth Forman: We were the first one that opened up. And then everybody started. Jerry Forman: You know, I used to get together with her and we used to run a dance in Stevens, on Garden Street, you know that place on Garden? Oh, they had a big beautiful hall there. Elizabeth Forman: And Elks in Hudson Street. Jerry Forman: In Hudson Street. Elizabeth Forman: What's that place? Now's it's condos over there. Oh my God, I can't remember. Jerry Forman: You're not thinking, thinking we had the dances in Stevens University up there? Elizabeth Forman: No, that's different. Now it was Hudson Street. Jerry Forman: The church. Elizabeth Forman: No. Jerry Forman: We had it in the- Elizabeth Forman: The mayor lives around, the mayor lives on this side, and then on the other side was the, it was a big club. I think I know what you're talking about, the old, what used to be the German Club [Union Club, 600 Hudson Street, Hoboken] Jerry Forman: Yes Elizabeth Forman: Yes. It used to be the German club, yes, I think I know what you're talking about. It's at 6th and Hudson. Jerry Forman: And then we had, and then we used 8th Street, we used, what is it, the Baptist Church? Oh, that was about 40 years ago, we ran dances in there. Also we ran dances in Stevens Institute of Technology in Stevens, remember the big dances we ran? Elizabeth Forman: Yeah. Jerry Forman: With two large, we would get two large Hispanic bands to play, Tito Puente, Tito Rodriguez, Jenny Ventura…. Elizabeth Forman: We still have pictures around, I don't know where you put them. Jerry Forman: I don't know myself. Elizabeth Forman: Everything is mixed up around here. Look around (unintelligible). Did you do anything at the Hispanic Catholic Center on Washington Street? Elizabeth Forman: In Washington Street. Jerry Forman: In Washington Street was the Spanish American Catholic Center. Yes, that's right. Jerry Forman: Organization. Elizabeth Forman: That was on Washington right over here. Jerry Forman: Right over here. Elizabeth Forman: Between Third and Second. Jerry Forman: That was the Spanish American and that used to be a Jewish place. Yes. Let me go up for a minute, let me see if I can find it. Elizabeth Forman: What do you go to find? Jerry Forman: Let me look in your wallet. (Tape stopped briefly) Elizabeth Forman: The Clam Broth House, it was nice. But it was Luigi, he went upstairs at Clam Broth House years and years and years, and Mr. Podesta said to me, I said, 'I can make my pastellas today and we can put it outside for the people, you know, like a Sunday, to invite people to come to the place.' And he said, 'why don't you send Luigi, why are you upstairs?' because he don't want nobody upstairs in his kitchen. And I was like this (gesturing), I was pregnant, I went upstairs and said, 'Hi Luigi, how you doing?' He says, 'sit down, sit down, what's your name, what's your name?' He was very nice. And I told him, I said, 'I want to come down here and work with you.' He said to me, 'I cook Italian, not Spanish.' I said, 'I cook Spanish, you cook Italian.' I started making the pastellas and he says, 'this is nice to learn it.' So how did you and Mr. Forman come to live in Hoboken, why did you decide to move here? Elizabeth Forman: Well, I live with my mother-in-law over there and it was too, you know, she was very nice woman, but you know, you have babies, children, (unintelligible), you know. And then my brother-in-law finds this apartment here and my husband was working in Hudson Street with Zaco [sp?] making false teeth, you know, and that's when they find this apartment here, and then we move here, and from here, it was a furnished room, and from here we move in the project [public housing], because in those years, the project was beautiful, not now, but in those years, it was beautiful. It was one Puerto Rican family, one Italian, one black, you know, they don't put all together like now, now they do, now they throw everything in there, before it was very nice and everybody keep their apartment and the whole place nice and clean and beautiful. And then, later on, we save a little money here and there, you know, I like to save, he's too good with everybody. I'm good too but I like to save. Saving and saving and saving, and we bought a house. Our first house was in Hudson Street, in Bloomfield Street, between, over here, between 210 and 208, between Second and Third. And then he started renting to Spanish-speaking people, you know. [Mr. Forman returns to the interview] Jerry Forman: This is one of our great grand children (showing photos) That's very cute, nice Jerry Forman: Typical Pollack. Believe me when I tell you, typical Pollack Elizabeth Forman: (unintelligible, laughing) Jerry Forman: this is my daughter Esther, she's the one that fought in the Israeli Army, she fought in Shel Meshek. Elizabeth Forman: And you find other pictures over there. Jerry Forman: I forgot she was coming. I'm curious, did you go to church, to synagogue or practice both? Jerry Forman: Synagogue. Elizabeth Forman: Synagogue, yeah, now lately (unintelligible) Jerry Forman: I can't find that picture, if I can find that picture…. Elizabeth Forman: I can't find no one to go with, since I get old, you know, the situation, you know. Jerry Forman: Here, this is one of the- (showing card) "Latin American Softball League" Elizabeth Forman: Yeah, it was the first one started with my husband. When was this? Oh, that's a nice photo. Elizabeth Forman: What year was that, Jerry? Jerry Forman: I organized- Elizabeth Forman: Look at the other side. Jerry Forman: This was 442 Second Street, the Café Elisa, the place that was under her name, and we owned that building and the hotel and I did another stupid thing. Elizabeth Forman: when it was no time to sell, when I wanted to, he- Jerry Forman: this was one of the nicest fellows you ever wanted to meet, Noel Rodriguez, oh, what a wonderful guy. Let me see. Noel. (To Mrs. Forman): So how was it for you learning to practice Judaism? You had been raised Catholic? Elizabeth Forman: Well, the rabbi was very nice and we used to go Thursday to his house, and his wife taught me, you know (unintelligible). Did you ever go to St. Joseph's? Jerry Forman: Oh yes, all their affairs. Elizabeth Forman: And we do the- Jerry Forman: Oh, and we ran the dances there too. That's right, I forgot, we ran the dances there. Elizabeth Forman: Yes, with, what's his name, Father Eugene. Jerry Forman: That's right, did you ever hear of Father Eugene? Oh yes. I'm wondering if you could tell me some stories about Father Eugene? I've heard that he was very, very popular, very well loved. Elizabeth Forman: Yes. Jerry Forman: I brought him to Hoboken from Pennsylvania. Elizabeth Forman: He was the one, he was the one, wanting to, Mayor Grogan, he went to Mayor Grogan and he said, 'who can I get to organize the Spanish?,' you know. Jerry Forman: The man called me. Elizabeth Forman: And the mayor called Jerry right away and he says [about Mr. Forman], 'he's a Jewish guy but he's close to them. And he's wife is Puerto Rican too.' And that's when Father Eugene- Jerry Forman: They used to call her Jew Rican. So, what kinds of things can you tell me about Father Eugene? What was it like to work with him? Jerry Forman: He was a hard-working man of the Church. Elizabeth Forman: Very hard worker. Jerry Forman: And then he left and went back to Pennsylvania. I don't know why, I had no idea. I was as surprised as surprised could be, why he packed up Hoboken. And you know something, you talking, we got him the Jewish War Veterans headquarters. Elizabeth Forman: Right (unintelligible) Jerry Forman: Remember? Elizabeth Forman: Right. Jerry Forman: Jeez, I forgot all about that. Elizabeth Forman: And we used to do the club (unintelligible) in the club, remember? You went to ask all the stores for television, for things, they have gym for the children over there. Jerry Forman: Who was the first president that we made? Elizabeth Forman: And Father Eugene told you, this is off the (unintelligible), I'm telling you, how people is (unintelligible) Jerry Forman: This is my grandson. Elizabeth Forman: How people, Jerry, wait a minute, how people that, how you have been we are (unintelligible). We build the club, the Catholic Club, you know, right there by, it was Sealy Paint downstairs and upstairs was the club, and I'm telling you for the church, and they Jerry said, 'I can't be a president because first of all, I'm Jewish, and this is the Catholic, I will help you, anything you want.' And we're helping with everything, we fix up nice. We put Georgie Torres to be the president and when they have the inauguration, they don't even invite us. They next day, we didn't even know what's going on, it was so, the next day, I went to Father Eugene and said, 'Father Eugene, you know, it's still religion and it has nothing to do, because when you need us, we went, you come to us, and we help you. Now when you make a party for, make what you call it, the president, you don't have the decency,' he said, 'Mr. Forman, Mrs. Forman, you want to come over to see,' you know. Jerry Forman: And then (unintelligible) Elizabeth Forman: 'Because that don't have nothing to do with religion. We organize here, so the ladies can be here, the young guys bring the children here, and things like that.' He says, 'it not my fault, it was Torres.' I talk to Torres, and he says, 'it's not my fault, it was Father Eugene.' I said, I called the two together and said, 'you, a liar, and so are you, excuse me, Father.' And I left (laughs). Jerry Forman: Here's another priest that I worked with very hard to organize for him. Andres Reyes. Jerry Forman: I got an award from them. Was he only in Jersey City or did he come to Hoboken also? Jerry Forman: He used to come, but mainly Jersey City. Did you ever work with Father [Frederick] Eid? Jerry Forman: No. You know, I forget the names of some of the priests we worked with. I'm telling you, quite a few. Elizabeth Forman: I'm very bad remembering names. I'm wondering about what other things were going on with the Puerto Rican community here in Hoboken in the Fifties. Jerry Forman: Buying houses. It was very, very tough for them to get into buying houses. So I would go down and put the money down. They couldn't get loans or what was the problem? Jerry Forman: Yeah. Elizabeth Forman: And they couldn't get no apartments either. Jerry Forman: Couldn't get apartments, it was tough. You see that street down there, on Bloomfield Street, from Newark to Observer Highway, I had to lie and go up and get apartments for people. I'd say, 'that's for my sister-in-law.' 'OK, Jerry, OK, OK.' And then when I would move my sister-in-law in, everybody, everybody was my sister-in-law or my brother-in-law. And then on Washington- Elizabeth Forman: if they were Italian or American or Irish- Jerry Forman: from my right hand to God, right over there, I was stopped by- Elizabeth Forman: no, you weren't stopped by there, it was right over in front of the house. They got two guys, big guys come down, and said 'Jerry, you better stop bringing the Puerto Ricans to the town, because we're going to dump you and your wife and the children in the Hudson River.' And Jerry said to him, 'you know, I was in Korea, I never got scared, and I'm not going to get scared now, do whatever you want.' I remember it just like it was now, I see those two guys, one was a Jewish guy, was a detective at (unintelligible) and the other was a detective. And he (unintelligible) because Jerry had to look at him because he was very tall, Jerry had to look at him and said, 'I'm telling you the honest truth, I was in Korea.' Jerry Forman: Yeah, they got mad at me, what was his name? (3rd party entered the room) Jerry Forman: That's my campaign manager. Child: Malique. Jerry Forman: Malique, from West Africa. What hurt me is that the other guy- Elizabeth Forman: was a Jewish guy- Jerry Forman: was a Jewish fellow, what was his name? He had a big, Tammerent? Elizabeth Forman: Tammerent. Jerry Forman: Tammeran [cataloguers note: Tamarin] real estate (Unintelligible) Jerry Forman: Stop bringing the Puerto Ricans into Hoboken. Elizabeth Forman: Otherwise you're going to be in Hudson River, you and your children and your wife. Jerry Forman: And she was- Elizabeth Forman: and Jerry says like that, Jerry looked like that because he had to look at him because he was tall. He said 'I was in Korea and never was scared and I have to be scared now.' When you were living here, did you ever go to the Feast of St. John's in New York? Elizabeth Forman: Yeah, we did. Jerry Forman: Yeah, that's right, I forgot about that. Elizabeth Forman: Yeah, I love it. It was a big Puerto Rican (unintelligible, people talking over each other) in Puerto Rico. Elizabeth Forman: Yes, it was nice. Jerry Forman: I forgot about that, you're bringing back memories. I'm wondering in your town, what kinds of feast days did you have, you had the Feast of St. John's presumably but what other ones? Jerry Forman: This is for you (speaking to 3rd party), OK, you want one more for Mommy? So when you think about when you were growing up in Puerto Rico, the kinds of church festivals. Elizabeth Forman: I never, I never went, always I was alone. How do you say in English, a loner? My mother passed away and my grandfather, that's the only thing, you know, I never was. Was your family religious growing up? Elizabeth Forman: Not that I know. Did you attend church in Puerto Rico? Elizabeth Forman: No. So, it wasn't a big adjustment when you came here. Elizabeth Forman: No, it wasn't a big thing for me when I get here because I was all alone all the time because my mother passed away and my grandfather passed away, that was the one that raised me- Jerry Forman: What's funny is, you know where else we used to go? We used to take the bus and we used to go with the group where they had tango night, we used to go, we organized the tango club, the Roseland. Elizabeth Forman: Roseland. Jerry Forman: The Roseland in New York, I used to bring a whole group over there from here, two buses loads and we would go tango night over there in the Roseland. Jeez, I forgot all about that. Where else was it? Then we organized in Newark. Elizabeth Forman: He was always organizing because he was the first one, he started- Jerry Forman: And then we organized, remember Newark, we organized the first Hispanic group in Newark. Elizabeth Forman: Yes, but I wasn't involved. Jerry Forman: What was his name in Newark? Elizabeth Forman: We had a business in First Street, its name was Victorian Record Shop and- Jerry Forman: She's got a better brain than me. Elizabeth Forman: It was big and it was phonograph records, Spanish records. Jerry Forman: Because there was no place here that had that kind of music. Elizabeth Forman: And socks with, you know, you have the socks with the little flowers around here, and beautiful blouses and everything, you know. Then this fellow comes down and says to Jerry, 'Jerry, you're very popular here with the Spanish-speaking people,' this was a Puerto Rican guy himself, and he said, 'I go talk to them, they don't want to listen to me, they only come to you, how about you help me to make this club.' And Jerry said, 'you want a club? yeah, yeah, OK,' and in the back of the business it was empty, it was a big store, I said, 'temporary, we could do it here,' and I used to have a nice crowd buying records, Spanish records. Jerry Forman: You know, from Spain and Argentina. Elizabeth Forman: Because they sound like (unintelligible), it was tango, it was pachanga in those years, you know, the mambo. Jerry Forman: Would you like some water? No, thank you. Jerry Forman: I forgot that. Elizabeth Forman: And I said to Jerry, (unintelligible), 'why don't we go and register the Spanish American Social Club.' Then he went and what happened, I have a problem then, because you know Spanish-speaking people, some of them (talking loudly) 'hey, me, oh boy,' and the Italian people started getting scared, he said 'me think you Italia, you Puerto Rica,' and the business going down and going down and going down. I says to Jerry, 'you have to move the club up someplace else because some people they don't like us,' some people come and they (talking loudly), 'hey, you, come here,' you know. Jerry Forman: Didn't we, didn't they have a club on Willow Avenue? Elizabeth Forman: Yes, yes, wait a minute. That's what I come to. Then Jerry went and take the people from (unintelligible) on Willow Avenue, a store around there, I forgot the number, and they moved there. So now the business was already going and I said, 'well, now you, we don't... [truncated due to length]