2010.019

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2010 - 2010

Date(s) Created: 2010 Date(s): 2010

Notes: archives catalog 2010.019.0001.09 Puerto Rican interview protocol (priests/nuns, non-parishioners): Father Mike Guglielmolli, St. Francis Church, February 19, 2010: Interviewer: Christina Ziegler-McPherson Interviewee: Father Mike Guglielmolli, St. Francis Church, 298 Jefferson Street, Hoboken, N.J. Place: St. Francis Church, 3rd and Jefferson Streets, Hoboken, N.J. Transcription made by Christina Ziegler-McPherson, 2010. Consent: do you give your consent to record this interview about the Puerto Rican community in Hoboken? Fr. Mike: Yes, I do, as far as I know. When did you become a priest? Fr. Mike: 1970. What order: Fr. Mike: Originally, it was the Franciscan Conventual but I am now diocesan. When did you begin to serve in Hoboken? Fr. Mike: Oh, as a priest? Yes. Fr. Mike: 1973. Did you serve in Hoboken in another capacity before then? Fr. Mike: Well, I lived here and grew up here. I was born here. Oh, really, where did you grow up? Fr. Mike: Right on the next block, on Jefferson, 4th and Jefferson. All my life I've lived in Hoboken. Which parish church did you attend as a child? Fr. Mike: St. Ann's parish in the beginning but then St. Francis. It's nice that you're here now at St. Francis. Fr. Mike: They're my people. When you began serving as a priest here in Hoboken, what church were you at? Fr. Mike: here [St. Francis]. I've always been here. At St. Francis. When you started as a priest here, how many Puerto Ricans attended your church, on average? Fr. Mike: Not many, because this is, this is an ethnic Italian parish, so we still have Masses in Italian, so Hispanics, the Hispanics, all went to St. Joe's, St. Joseph's Church. So your church never had Spanish-language services, sacraments. Fr. Mike: Well, it was, a couple of years ago, we experimented but it really didn't work out so we dropped it. St. Francis is still a national parish? Fr. Mike: Yes. Officially. Has there been any discussion, either now or in the past, about making it an integrated, or making it a geographic parish? Fr. Mike: No. But the, but the, there is very little Italian, it's all English. One of the reason why I wanted to talk to you is I was told you knew Father Eugene Zwahl, and I'm wondering if you could tell me about him and his ministry. Fr. Mike: I was a member of the Conventual Franciscans. In the Franciscans, there are three basic major groups, there's the Conventual Franciscans, there's the regular Franciscans, and then there are the Capuchin Franciscans. They are all Franciscans, they all follow the same rule, but their interpretations are a bit different, OK? Like in New York, on 31st Street, there's the regular, I think 33rd Street is the Capuchin, but we are the Conventuals, we wear a black habit, black or gray, the others wear brown. But, but the thing is, so Father Eugene was a member of the Conventuals. So we have, our missions are in Costa Rica and Brazil. Every, every group, every province, in other words, order has provinces, and every province is given an area as their mission territory, so we took care of Costa Rica and Brazil. We got to Costa Rica through the banana company, the banana company needed priests to take care of their workers, and so that's how we got into the Spanish apostolate. So, Father Eugene, when he came back, because there were so many Hispanics now in Hoboken, he was stationed at St. Joe's. So he opened up a Spanish center on Washington Street, which became, which was basically the first outreach to the Puerto Ricans. Over time, that, that was absorbed into St. Joseph's parish and that's when St. Joseph's parish became primarily Hispanic, because before that it had been German and Irish and then Hispanic. Once it became Hispanic, then most of the English-speaking priests, people left the parish. So it became known as the Spanish, to this day, as the Spanish church. And from there, you know, many of the friars that were sent there were friars who spoke Spanish, either they had been missionaries down there in Costa Rica or they learned Spanish, but they were, they were like sort of the avant garde of, of, you know, serving the Puerto Ricans, because at that time, there was friction between the Puerto Ricans coming in and the, the natives, the Irish, the Italians, the Germans. When did Father Eugene first start this ministry? Fr. Mike: That I don't know. It had to be way back when, it had to be, it had to be, early Seventies or the Sixties, because I joined the order in the Sixties and I was ordained in the Seventies and it was going then. And for as long has he lived, he worked with the Hispanics. Do you know if that was a personal decision on his part to reach out to Puerto Ricans or if this was under the direction of the Franciscans? Fr. Mike: With us as Franciscans, you always, you're always under obedience, in other words, what ever you do you do with the, under the orders or obedience of your superior, which we call the provincial. But if you have an idea, you can approach the provincial and say, 'you know, I'd like to do this, I think I can do a good job,' and if he feels you can, then he'll say, 'go ahead, run with it.' So that's what happened. Do you know about what kind of support, if any, he received from the Archdiocese of Newark for this? Fr. Mike: Oh, I'm sure he received a lot of support, he certainly received a lot of support from the order. You know, because the order was the one in the sense supported him, they gave him room, board, a place to stay, they eventually gave him a church to work at, and eventually, I would think, that the Diocese, or the Archdiocese would be very happy because he was working with their people, you know, it was, it was a need in the Church and certainly he was filling that need, because at that time there weren't, you know, when an immigration wave comes in, there's always a problem with getting priests that speak their language and work with them and know their culture, and Eugene knew that, he knew that and he knew that very well. Did he take priests who had been to Costa Rica to Puerto Rico to learn about the culture? Fr. Mike: No. But then, later on, I know that some of the young priests went to Puerto Rico in order to learn Spanish and the culture and then came back and worked with them. But a lot of, a lot of the Costa Ricans, because later on, in Costa Rica and in all Central America, the, the people from those countries really didn't want the Americans down there. They figured, because we Americans have a different mentality, you know, they think, I think that we think maybe our way is the best way, so, they would always say to us, 'you're welcome to come down here to speak Spanish, to learn Spanish, but as far as running the show, we run our own show,' so a lot went down to Costa Rica to learn the language but then if they had to go to Costa Rica to learn the language, they just as well could go to Puerto Rico and learn it, because Puerto Rican is more of a dialect, than real Spanish, and so it was better for them under those circumstances to go to Puerto Rico. And then the other ones would say, 'well, you know, they're not the only Hispanics around,' there are the Cubans, other Central and South Americans, but they learned Spanish. Do you know if the Franciscans or the Archdiocese tried to recruit priests from Puerto Rico? Fr. Mike: Well, a large portion of the Church is now Spanish-speaking, so the thing is, so many of the young priests also speak Spanish, so it's really, from my perspective as an Italian, it's, it's much easier to find a Spanish-speaking priest than an Italian-speaking priest, an Italian-speaking priest is really in the minority now, there are very few of them, where you can go to almost any parish and find a priest who speaks Spanish. But I'm wondering, are those priests and other religious from the Caribbean or are they Americans who learned Spanish? Fr. Mike: No, no, they are Americans. I would say, I don't know too many Puerto Rican priests that came over here and worked with their own. South Americans, like Colombians, like that, you find a lot of the Filipino priests, there are in this Diocese anyway, there are an awful lot of Filipino priests, and almost all of them speak Spanish. Did you ever work with Father [Frederick] Eid? Fr. Mike: No. I know him, and I know of him, but Father Eid always worked with Hispanics. But his work, Our Lady of Grace has many Cubans, and the Cubans think differently from the Puerto Ricans, it's a completely different set up. The Cubans, how should I say it, I may be wrong, but the Cubans that more or less escaped Castro were those who were well educated, while the Puerto Ricans were the poor that came, so you had different types of people, different backgrounds and all that kind of stuff. And, the Cubans, as soon as they came here, were very, how can I say it, they're businessmen, like in Union City, they opened up all, they revitalized whole sections of Hudson County, you know, where the Puerto Ricans just, in fact in Hoboken, one of the, I remember Tootsie Roll on Willow Avenue, and what Tootsie Roll did was they took that section of Willow Avenue, which was prime real estate, beautiful homes, I mean apartments, gorgeous apartments, and they bought the whole thing so they could bring in all the cheap labor in from Puerto Rico and the other places and just so that they could have cheap labor, but they destroyed the property. I remember going through there and seeing naked kids sitting on the, on the fire escape and everybody here saying 'how, aren't they afraid they're going to fall?' you know, because they had these, these kids naked just sitting full on the fire escapes, and houses, what they used to do, they never had, what do you call it, Venetian blinds or shades, they would just have like a sheet that they would tie on the side and that became almost a symbol of a Puerto Rican house, when they saw that, they'd say, 'oh those are Puerto Ricans,' you know, and that was some of the resistance, because what happened is they came here and it took them a while to sort of acclimate to our ways (unintelligible). I'm curious about how St. Joseph's became the church for Puerto Ricans, was it because Father Eugene provided services? Fr. Mike: Right, they did everything in Spanish. And that was the first church that did everything in Spanish because the Puerto Ricans came before the Cubans, before, they were one of the first of the Spanish wave, and then you got the Cubans and then you got the Central and South Americans, and now pretty much it's not, I would say, Hispanics now are as much Ecuadorian, Peruvian, Colombian, as they are Puerto Rican. And the Puerto Ricans actually have acclimated and intermarried so like now we have a lot of Hispanics come to our church but they are all English speaking. And so, actually what they do, the young people when they, when they get acclimated and educated, they really don't want to go back to, say like St. Joe's, which is all Spanish, because they all speak English really, I mean, they speak Spanish also, but right now English is their language, they work here, you know, they grew up here so. And it's funny, because one of our kids, when his family went back to live in Puerto Rico and he spoke no Spanish, and I said to him, 'how do you do it down there?' because everyone (unintelligible) and he said, 'in the high school I go to most of the kids speak English.' It's in the village, you know, outside of the city, they speak all of the Spanish, but inside the city they all understand English, you know, they listen to radio and TV, so it's, it's acclimated, and let's face it, at this stage of the game, Hoboken is not a place for the poor, except for the projects and subsidized housing, a poor person can't live here. I'm curious about whether you remember any discussions within the Franciscan order about the development of particularly Puerto Rican religious traditions like the Feast of St. John's or Three Kings, other kinds of, either Puerto Rican-specific or Caribbean Spanish religious traditions. Fr. Mike: Well, when you go, when the, when you go to St. Joe's they had all those ceremonies, all those feast days, you know the Three Kings was a big holiday there, the Stations of the Cross, on Good Friday they did it a certain way, they walked down to the projects and they are still trying to capture that today in the different churches, because now what's happening, now three of the churches, St. Joe's, Our Lady of Grace and Sts. Peter and Paul, they all have Spanish apostolates, for us and St. Ann's, we're Italian and we are by far the more Italian, you know, we sort of stress the Italian part, and the thing is that, but for, so even today they are trying to sort capture that, capture that and, but there again, you get the old timers, the young people are Americanized, and they don't go for that too much. But at that time, whatever Spanish holidays there were, they celebrated them. They celebrated everything, they celebrated, you know, I don't know what the name is, you know, when the girl hits 16 they have this big party and so on, they did all that stuff. There's a name for that. I'm curious also about other kinds social organizations or groups the Church developed for Puerto Ricans or Spanish speakers. Fr. Mike: Each of the, you know, again, I can't answer that because I'm no, but I know that they had Spanish prayer groups, Spanish Pentecostal groups within the church, and, and they still meet now, I think they meet every Wednesday, prayer group. I'm curious if you know of any priests in Hoboken who attended Institute of Missionary Formation (later called the Institute of Intercultural Communication) in Puerto Rico? Fr. Mike: No. As I said, I know some of our friars went to Puerto Rico, now they very easily could have gone there but I don't know that. And that was the place to go. And I'm wondering if you ever encountered Father Joseph Fitzpatrick? Fr. Mike: No. Is he from Hoboken? No, he was from New York, Fr. Mike: No. He did some of the first research for the Catholic Church about Puerto Ricans. I'm wondering if there is anything else you could tell me about Father Eugene. I've heard a lot about him from different parishioners, I'm curious about your perspective as a priest. Fr. Mike: Really, I mean, he was sort of dedicated to Hispanics, that was his whole life (unintelligible). Do you know anything about his personal life, where he was born? Fr. Mike: No, If I was to take a guess, I would dare say, he was from Pennsylvania, because he was, Zwahl, Z-W-H-A-H-L. He was German? Fr. Mike: No, I think it was Slovak. I've heard German, Polish and now Slovak. Fr. Mike: Yes, because our friars used to go on mission calls to Pennsylvania, because our area was from the Atlantic Ocean to Pennsylvania. So they used to be missionaries, they used go all over preaching in all the churches, so the Slovaks were a lot of the miners in Pennsylvania, Slovaks, so when they went there they were, they were exposed to all the Slovaks, so many of the Slovaks became priests in our group, like Endicott, Binghamton, were all Slovak areas where our priests came from, so he could very well have been Slovak. I don't know what kind of name that is but, Eugene, Eugene Zwahl. And they had a lot of, a lot of Slovaks. I don't know exactly. Do you know when he left Hoboken, I understand he was transferred? Fr. Mike: Hold on a second, I can give you some information. There's an old book that has that. So what have you got for me? I've heard Father Eugene described as very strict. Fr. Mike: Who? Father Eugene. Fr. Mike (checking directory): (unintelligible) 1997 Fr. Mike: He was born March 21, 1915, he became a priest May 30, 1942, he was still alive when this thing was printed and this is 1997. So, how did you get to know him, did all of the priests in Hoboken know each other? Fr. Mike: Well, we were in the same community. The Franciscans are like a family, so if he was in Hoboken and even though they lived in St. Joe's and we lived here, we were really like one, so we used to eat together, and so on, we each had our work but we knew each other. But by that time, he was well into his work and he was older, but the thing was, everyone was into their own work, like I was a parish person. At this time, it was like inner city and I grew up in Hoboken and my work was basically here with the Italians, his was basically with the Puerto Ricans. So how does this community work, do you get together on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis and share? Fr. Mike: No, for us we were in the same house, the same house, so we would have dinner together maybe two or three times a week. Where did the Franciscans live in Hoboken? Fr. Mike: Excuse me? Where did the Franciscans live in Hoboken? Fr. Mike: Here, where we work, St. Francis and St. Joe's, we have both, both places. This church is a split off from St. Joe's. St. Joe's is basically German and then the Irish took over, and the Northern Italians came to Hoboken, and of course, the Irish and the Italian didn't get along, so the Italians asked permission to build their own church, and they were given permission and so they build this church [St. Francis], and so all the Italians left there [St. Joseph's] and came here and so some of the friars that helped build there came over here to work with them, so they did it all with permission, and, well, the Northern Italians were always industrial, you know, so they became millionaires and they moved out of Hoboken, and then the Southern Italians came (unintelligible). But yeah, so we ate together, worked together. When you're in a community like the Franciscans, you do everything together, you eat together, you pray together, you work together, and we do everything, everything like a family, you don't own anything, everything is commonly owned, when you live in a house you're, you're very much dependent on each other, because everything that you have is held in common, whereas the diocesan priest is very independent and they get a salary and they do their work but then they're free to do what they want. As a religious, as a Franciscan you don't get a salary, the salary goes into the kitty and then everybody, everything is done together, so you've got your job, you do your job, but then the rest of the time, you're working as a family, so you pray together, you cook together. So when you became a priest, a Franciscan, how many other Franciscans were there here in Hoboken? Fr. Mike: A lot. Well, this house has about four, St. Joe's has maybe up to seven or eight, so a lot, there were many, many. Because everybody was doing, see with the Franciscans, that's why, you know, Columbus had the Franciscans, because what happens is, we can get into whatever work needs to be done, as long as we do with permission and stay with the group. So even though there were a lot of men, we weren't all working at the same thing, so we had men living in the house who were, who were teachers, who were social workers, who were whatever, so we all had different kinds of work, you all had to work, but we all lived together like a family. It's like a family, you have a lot of kids, every kid is into different things, so (unintelligible) but we follow the same rules, you pray together, work together, and support each other. So when did the Franciscans decide to leave Hoboken? Fr. Mike: Oh, I'd say at least ten years ago, maybe more, because they were getting, their numbers were diminishing and so they had to start pulling out of their parishes, you'll find all the religious were doing the same thing, they're pulling out of their parishes, and the Archbishop asked me to stay here, and so with permission I remained here as a Franciscan and then later on, I decided to join the Diocese, so now I belong to the Diocese, but I'm still a Franciscan at heart. And was this related to the idea of closing St. Joseph's or was that separate? I know there's been debate. Fr. Mike: No, that's, that's separate. Do you know what the reason is for that idea, to close the church, why the Church would like to close St. Joseph's? Fr. Mike: Well, what they do is, there's less priests and also, I don't know the, the details but I'm sure they look at the financial picture, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a big building and there aren't that many people that go there and you have to support yourself, so they have sold, they sold the school and the convent, and the church is good, the church belongs to the Diocese, you know, that stays in the parish, so that's a huge source of support as you go along but eventually it diminishes, and right now it's really part of Our Lady of Grace parish, and they just have the Spanish Mass and an English Mass, the Spanish Mass is still (unintelligible). You know as I said, it's a very big church, it's a beautiful church and I mean, it's changed but that was the second church of Hoboken, after Our Lady of Grace. And because it was a German parish, when the, when the Irish sort of took it over, then the Germans built Sts. Peter and Paul, because that's a German church, and the Italians built St. Francis, and then St. Ann's came later. But that's how, St. Joe's was one of the first churches, but once again, when it became Hispanic, then it's, how can I say it, its destiny was tied to the Hispanic, so as the Hispanic influence diminished, the influence of that parish diminished, you know what I'm saying? I'm curious, would you say the same thing has happened to the Italian churches? Fr. Mike: Well, the Italian, actually, but see we haven't made Italian a large part of our parish, because what they did was they concentrated completely on the Hispanics, they did everything in Spanish, so the English-speaking felt out of place, over here, it's almost all English and all that we have now is the Italian Mass, so we have the one Italian Mass but everything else is in English. You see what I'm saying, in other words, the Italian apostolate here is a very small part of the, of the whole but over there the Spanish apostolate is almost the whole thing, so as you, as that diminishes you have less and less in Hispanics the church has less and less people, you see what I'm saying? And for us, we're a very popular church with the young people, (unintelligible), our church is extremely communal, cozy (unintelligible), we're very proud of our church. And we do a lot of good, we call ourselves the "Little Church with the Big Heart," so we do a lot of work with the poor, (unintelligible), but it's a completely different, you know, where we, we always, I do, anyway, as long as I'm here, I don't know for how much longer, but the thing is that we always stress our heritage, our Italian heritage, so we'll sing Italian songs, stuff like that, which the English-speaking love. [end] Hoboken Historical Museum catalog information 9. archives catalog 2010.019.0001.09 Date: February 19, 2010 Single cassette tape; dubbed to digital file. Interviewer: Christina Ziegler-McPherson Interviewee: Father Mike Guglielmolli, St. Francis Church, 298 Jefferson Street, Hoboken, N.J. Place: St. Francis Church, 3rd and Jefferson Streets, Hoboken, N.J. Transcription made by Christina Ziegler-McPherson, 2010. Status: OK Status By: dw Status Date: 2010-04-07